This is the first 8th gen Y series and needs an update
The Chipset sounds like a major update especially where these CPU are aim - less space on mobile device. Means smaller device and more battery - which appears to be trend with mobile phones but no one complains there. ( not saying you are complaining )
Oh, I very much enjoyed the 'Editor’s Opinion' part. I would like to see this in very out of the blue news articles where there is no obvious conclusion. But you may have a discussion or as a better name editor's opinion section.
Also, I wonder why Intel's IPC has not changed in the past three years. Does IPC only increase with node improvement? And this is the reason I think they are not forthcoming with more information these days since the new information doesn't have any hype anymore!
The Skylake architecture is highly optimized, so further gains are very hard (i.e. costly) to achieve. So they likely have to go for major changes to achieve any meaningful improvement. They've announced they're working on this, but it's 2+ years away. Maybe they thought frequency and core count increases, like they have been providing since the first Skylake, are cheaper to achieve and sufficient until the new architecture takes over.
This. Now they are getting power efficiency and clock speed gains from process improvements. Enough in this case that they can toss in a couple more cores and improve performance meaningfully that way.
yeah, 2019 is shaping up to be really interesting, with amd's zen 2 on tsmc 7nm node vs intel 10nm ice lake vs. apple's a12 (& other 7nm arm cores)
probably the first time in two decades that intel hasn't had a significant node advantage.
it might just be possible to find intel sandwiched in a zen2/a12 sandwich, where both deliver better performance, one in servers/desktops, the other in ultrabooks/tablets
Ice Lake certainly has IPC improvements, but Intel decided against backporting it to 14nm, so, yes, the 10nm delay functionally delays IPC improvements.
In order to increase IPC, you need to actually update the microarchitecture. All of the Intel Lakes are based on the Skylake µarch, thus all of them have the same IPC. The exception being Cannon Lake, which saw some µarch changes as well as being fabbed on 10 nm. I believe Ian had a laptop with a Cannon Lake Core i3-8121U in it, so maybe he could comment on any IPC gains he saw with that part.
A process shrink is like having 20 fingers instead of 10: Just try to imagine how that would make you work double in the same time.
The shrinks are hard, but turning shrinks into more of the existing work getting done in the same time frame is very, very, very hard when they have spent the last dozens of shrinks already performing that miracle. And in their cases they can't even change the ISA and maintain backward compatibility.
We have Spectre and Meltdown precisely because in their desperate search for more performance they went perhaps too far. Please put your mind into the problem before you demand the unreasonable.
"We have Spectre and Meltdown precisely because in their desperate search for more performance they went perhaps too far. Please put your mind into the problem before you demand the unreasonable."
That is not true - The 8705g in my Dell XPS 15 2in1 has Intel MPX which is designed to detect buffer overflow or underflow.
Basically what it comes down to is that Intel does NOT require 10nm to fix Spectre and Meltdown issues in hardware,
Actually I think we have Spectre and Meltdown because there is people that hate Intel so much, they would find ways to attempt destroy them with bugs that have yet surface in real life - but in end it also includes AMD and ARM.
I think the important thing is note that this is an Opinion. And I believe everything is opinion on the net except possible with technical details on a product that has been officially release.
My opinion is that Intel has done a very smart thing with these chips and I believe up and coming Laptops / Tablets will be both smaller and longer battery life. They are doing this not because of Threat of AMD - but actually with because Windows on ARM laptops. But of course even the Y chip will be faster than ARM laptops - making Windows on ARM useless. Probably a key factor in Microsoft decision for not using it in Surface Go.
Utter BS coming from Intel. User count on experience? What experience did they provide or improve? Without OS and other hardware partner working with them? Intel is trying their MMX and Pentium inside again, where people will buy a newer generation of product even if it was the same as last gen but a rebadge.
If they had included the Thunderbolt controller it would have been easier to swallow because that thing cost $15. Now it is more of the same. Lies after Lies after Lies. I am not sure how intel can be trusted anymore.
Oh if user don't care about node or uArch or technical details, please don't invite any tech journalist to your event. They might as well not write for you.
The value of the 2 additional cores will strongly depend on the cooling capacity of the device, and thus the duration of the boost frequency, or else they will crash to their base frequency and have zero performance edge over the fastest Kaby Lake-U (15W) CPUs such as i7-7600U and i7-7660U.
The only difference here is clock speeds and the move to 300-series Cannon Point chipsets. Kaby Lake R was already a thing, and Amber Lake is still dual-core. I have to believe WHL and AML are at least fabbed on 14++ though.
I stand corrected, I thought the coffeelake generation in 25W parts had meant the 15W already has quad core as well. So for the 15W parts it is much better, the 5Ws parts they are more of the same.
I know it seems like another minor upgrade (and hell, there's cases where if you're running anything Haswell or newer with a decent amount of RAM, you might not see a performance reason to upgrade), but on a scale from 1-10, I think we have to give these new chips a 14+++++++++.
cite: "Products are sold on capabilities and user experiences, not in the fine minutiae of technical specifications." true, but then CPUs aren't sold to the average consumer, most don't give a rats ass about what's in their electronic devices. they care about speed, device brand & battery life.
those that actually buy (and read articles like this) components like CPUs are very different from average joe, cut though marketing like a sheet of paper and almost exclusively care about technical details. and if those details are withheld they'll either find out or trust only benchmark results...
this leaves the question: who's intel marketing target at? dumb "experts"?
Not all do, but a significant amount care for it. You are generalizing it for everyone.
I've seen people crap on a product that was otherwise good because the CPU used was last generation.
Intel had a presentation years ago and one of the slides said enthusiast users(like people who knows about what the specs really mean) have a market effect equal to multiple consumers. I certainly recommend computers to family and friends. So in my case, 1 enthusiast is affecting 10-15 average joes.
I think those days are gone. Instead of seeking the advice of a person who is "into it" from real life social circles younger generations have multiple virtual social circles they can tap for opinions without the embarrassment of reaching out and interacting to a real life person. Large circle "Influencers" have increasingly displaced the small circle enthusiasts. Companies gladly play to the new changes by releasing fewer information to the general public so they themselves can influence the influencers by controlling access.
Man the cTDP down option really does a number on the base clock speeds. for the 15w processors dropping the TDP ~33% reduces the clock speed to half or less of the normal base speed. Obviously the CPU won't spend all, or hopefully much, of their time throttled down that low but it still looks painful.
It actually will, to keep within the new TDP. Of course lot of client usage is bursty, so its not as noticeable. Do anything sustained, and it'll drop.
Of course Intel isn't divulging architecture details or manufacturing details. There's no need to report anything until there's anything to report, especially when saying "we didn't change almost anything" would make Intel look bad.
15W parts still seem to lack Iris Plus, so maybe still not for the nontouchbar Macbook Pro...This alleged new budget Macbook, maybe, and the 5W parts definitely for the 12
The MacBook (Retina, 13-inch, 2018) which will replace the 13-inch MacBook Air is simply the MacBook Pro (13-inch, Two Thunderbolt 3 Ports) in a wedge shaped / tapered case, as was originally intended back in 2016. As can be guessed just by looking at the name, that model was a total plan-B, and ended up delaying the 2016 MacBook Pro launch by four months. I'm guessing Apple will continue to use the same KBL-U 2+3e platform as the current 13-inch MacBook Pro sans Touch Bar and proceed to discontinue that product.
"If all of this wasn't confusing enough, OEMs can run the chips in cTDP Up and cTDP down modes. Will you be able to tell if your chip is in one of these modes?"
You should know, since you write articles related to computers.
The cTDP modes are for manufacturers. They can decide how it can be implemented. If they wish, it could be cTDPdown all the time, or normal TDP all the time, or cTDPup all the time.
Or they can make it usage dependent for convertibles. Tablet mode = cTDPdown, Laptop mode on battery = Nominal, Laptop mode on AC power = cTDPup.
Right, but his point was "as a consumer, will you be told these details?" - and like most questions posed by journalists, the answer is "probably not" - they'll just sell it as "contains Intel i7 processor".
The control is in manufacturer's hands. They do things for a reason.
For example, there are ways to circumvent some power limitations so it runs at full power all the time. Perhaps the manufacturer decided the design and the chassis doesn't allow it to do that, doing some damage in the process.
Like, you don't want to be running at 25W full-bore when its in tablet mode.
Why are you not getting this? You are not contradicting anyone or adding anything to the conversation. His problem (and mine and others) with the variable TDPs is that manufacturers will not disclose them anywhere on the product pages or packing materials (most likely). Hence, it will be difficult to impossible to assess the real performance of product a, b or c based on the specs, because the specs might be incomplete. One more reason to wait for reviews, but reviews of more budget oriented notebooks are few and far between. So we can either buy it blind, test it and hope it performs as needed and if not ship it back. Or rely on sometimes unknowledgeable consumer reviews. Overall, while there might be good reason to implement variable TDP values, not disclosing them and Intel not forcing manufacturers to disclose them is not a good thing for consumers.
Hey Ian! 25W @ 1.8GHz for the i5-8265U is out of line with the other results. You might have made a mistake there. Thanks, and I agree with, and love your "Editor's opinion" section! PS: I do buy based on those minute technical details, look at Nvidia gsync+hdr on Pascal vs. Freesync+HDR on AMD GPUs. Those details *do* make a difference!
The ULV processors really need help. I've been using a Yoga 1 with an Ivy bridge i5 since release, its feeling quite slow nowadays, I was able to get a HP Probook with a Skylake 6200U and it feels barely faster. My desktop skylake i7 feels way faster than my i7 ivy bridge both o/c to 4.4GHz. We need some better cooling for these chips to give them the 25W they need.
I somehow missed the article saying it runs at PCIe 3.0 x4 speeds. But it kind of feels odd, as I thought the chipset here was the same silicon as on desktops, just packaged differently, and the desktop DMI is x4 wide. So this mobile chipset is using an x8 wide OPI?
Yes. The U and Y processors bring the PCH on package, ditch the PEG lanes, and use OPI x8 instead of DMI x4. For such short trace lengths, using a wider, lower-clocked interface probably offers several advantages, most notably lower power consumption.
The PCH is probably no different than on the desktop, but it’s flip-chipped directly onto the same interposer as the CPU, so it may be exposing an entirely different interface than the DMI used by the two chip solutions.
Not surprising. Why give numbers if they stayed more or less the same for many years. I don't like Apple but their business has provided TSMC to take the foundry business on top of the game. It looks like the new Apple chip this year is going have interesting numbers again
Re: a culture of information. Perhaps Intel is just catering to the new generation of "journalism"? For reasons unfathomed to me younger generations prefer watching a ten minute Youtuber yaking clip to get the same piece of information that would take less than a minute to read from print media. Facts and data sheets aren't as important, not to mention don't fill enough air time for "influencers" as reactions to opinions and hyperbole.
"These new processors will fall under Intel’s 8th Generation branding, which already contains its Kaby Lake Refresh 15W processors, both with and without extra embedded DRAM for its graphics."
Kaby Lake Refresh only added 4 quad-core 15 W parts with GT2 graphics. The last 15 W GT3e SKUs were part of the original Kaby Lake family and only dual-core. So Apple's choices for the new MacBook (Retina, 13-inch, 2018) are either WHL-U 4+2 or KBL-U 2+3e (same as the current 13-inch MacBook Pro sans TouchBar). I'd put my money on the latter.
"Both Amber Lake and Whiskey Lake are Kaby Lake underneath, there are no microarchitecture or manufacturing changes here."
This cannot be true. Kaby Lake was 14+. Whiskey and Amber have to at least be 14++ like Coffee Lake, no? Of course that also raises the question of why they received code names that aren't the same and aren't Coffee Lake either? I understand that Intel is in obfuscation mode at this point, but their code names usually follow an established pattern regardless of what the marketing team decides to do later on. Moving to 300 series / Cannon Point chipsets is simply a packaging update, so why did we get not one but two new processor family codenames?
Those Amber Lake parts look like they would be a nice fit for the next iteration of the Surface Go, although those MSRP prices are insane just like they were with the older m3 parts.
Hopefully they'll drop the prices for those CPUs so we can see more small devices using them.
Most likely but not noted here the Amber Lake will have Chipset enhancement requiring less chips - however the CPU is still more expensive that Surface Go current chip - but much faster than that chip.
I think Intel is being bashed because of the things it has learned its customers all these years, like tick tock, constant process improvements, constant uArch improvements. Now, that they can't do these things they changed the tactics and try to up the core count, improve efficiency of the node (current 14nm performance/efficiency is MUCH better than Broadwell 14nm). You could say that it reaches the results of what first try of 10nm could obtain. So, lets get used to that cause we are approaching the limit of silicon tech in the next years and thing will have to improve in other ways than we are used.
Yes in deed one thing Intel is showing with these updates is nm size is not all that is important, One most think where these chips are being aim - in the mobile industry and reducing chips on the motherboard is far more important then reducing die size. Intel is clearing showing you don't need 10nm to reduce the size of chips on laptop and increase battery life. Also who knows there maybe some process improvements also.
One thing that I found interesting is something called MPX - the higher watt CPU's including the 8705g in my Dell XPS 2in1 have MAX - but this one does not
Whisky & Amber are real lakes in Wisconsin and Washington, respectively. Intel uses names of real lakes for it's code names. I suspect you don't care though, and were just having a butthurt moment.
I just think Intel isn't giving more information because very little information differs from previous products, and Whiskey Lake / Amber Lake are just a couple of chipset features away from being a simple rebrand.
After ~2 years showing off what is essentially the same architecture on the same manufacturing node, I'd guess no one on their side is really looking forward to going through the same talking points over and over. Not to mention it doesn't bode well for the marketing department.
"After ~2 years showing off what is essentially the same architecture on the same manufacturing node, I'd guess no one on their side is really looking forward to going through the same talking points over and over. Not to mention it doesn't bode well for the marketing department."
Manufacturing node is not the primary requirement changes - please see my note above about Intel MPX which is supported in higher power 8th Gen CPU - that help prevent buffer overruns
Also CPU changes is not always the area where changes - but Chipsets can make a big difference in especially in size and functionality.
Reading about what Intel has done here with Chipset sounds exciting, I bet next generation Apples will have significant better battery life and smaller size.
I think it is a little crazy when Intel makes changes in architecture AMD fans and other Intel haters call it rebranding or marketing, but when AMD does the exact same thing they call it progress.
Another difference is unless some one mentions Intel in AMD article, normal Intel people like myself refrain from discussing it - unless it something that is directly related to AMD - But AMD fanboy's love to complain about Intel even though it add absolute nothing to discussion.
I think the key update s what they are doing with chipset - these are mobile chips - and less space it uses the smaller size it will be - by putting USB 3,1and WI-FI in chipset - they are reducing both size and cost. Plus with competition with ARM - they are increasing batter life
As for 8705g like in my Dell XPS 15 2in1 - it would have been nice if chipset was in it - but graphics look like it took much of space.
The key reason, I believe this is for Apple, longer life and reduce space.
"Foreshadow" inside, with the mitigations that only reduce but can't eliminate the risk?
Intel and all system companies and retail stores selling the “known” faulty products with the “known” INTENDED flaws (of not following the specs) inside the products should be sued for the crime of the fraud in criminal courts, shouldn’t they?
Sue the system companies to have them at least put the warning sticker "This product has known security risks with Intel CPU inside." on the products using the Intel CPUs that have the issues!
Agreed - having more facts means salesmen like I can better steer customers to the right product versus an inferior product. Articles and analysis like these allow me to better understand products and make better recommendations, thereby increasing customer loyalty and sales. It’s just better honest selling.
Intel was reaching for performance and left holes in the prefetch architecture that could be exploited.
He didn't say they weren't concerned with security and your response has very little to do with what he said.
Essentially he said that in their quest for performance they accidentally left open the sunroof and your response is that they invested good in door locks.
I agree with comment that ,the value of the 2 additional cores will strongly depend on the cooling capacity of the device, and thus the duration of the boost frequency, or else they will crash to their base frequency.. thx https://askmeoffers.com
Maybe something to add to the article? The usefulness: easier to wire up dGPU x8 + TB3 x4 + OPI x4. Seeing as ULV CPUs are now quad-cores like the old H-series, I think it's fitting they have the lanes to match.
Of course, notwithstanding cooling capability, but still. ;D
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Midwayman - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
If they disclosed it would just be even more obvious how little progress intel has made in recent years.MrSpadge - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
Oh dear, if even Intel calls it a minor update...However, the 5W parts will be significant upgrades over existing 4.5W parts and for the rest the chipset updates are definitely "nice to have".
HStewart - Wednesday, August 29, 2018 - link
This is the first 8th gen Y series and needs an updateThe Chipset sounds like a major update especially where these CPU are aim - less space on mobile device. Means smaller device and more battery - which appears to be trend with mobile phones but no one complains there. ( not saying you are complaining )
V900 - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
Overall a nice little upgrade, considering both the process and the architecture is the same.Turbo boost is 5-600 MHz higher on the Whisky Lake c
milkywayer - Wednesday, August 29, 2018 - link
$300 for a mobile i3.That is some milking!
AMD needs to copmete harder.
These chips should be part of $500 laptops instead.
mmrezaie - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
Oh, I very much enjoyed the 'Editor’s Opinion' part. I would like to see this in very out of the blue news articles where there is no obvious conclusion. But you may have a discussion or as a better name editor's opinion section.mmrezaie - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
Also, I wonder why Intel's IPC has not changed in the past three years. Does IPC only increase with node improvement? And this is the reason I think they are not forthcoming with more information these days since the new information doesn't have any hype anymore!MrSpadge - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
The Skylake architecture is highly optimized, so further gains are very hard (i.e. costly) to achieve. So they likely have to go for major changes to achieve any meaningful improvement. They've announced they're working on this, but it's 2+ years away. Maybe they thought frequency and core count increases, like they have been providing since the first Skylake, are cheaper to achieve and sufficient until the new architecture takes over.hecksagon - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
This. Now they are getting power efficiency and clock speed gains from process improvements. Enough in this case that they can toss in a couple more cores and improve performance meaningfully that way.witeken - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
IPC has not increased because Skylake was the only architecture Intel planned for 14nm and didn't backport Ice Lake.bernstein - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
yeah, 2019 is shaping up to be really interesting, with amd's zen 2 on tsmc 7nm node vs intel 10nm ice lake vs. apple's a12 (& other 7nm arm cores)probably the first time in two decades that intel hasn't had a significant node advantage.
it might just be possible to find intel sandwiched in a zen2/a12 sandwich, where both deliver better performance, one in servers/desktops, the other in ultrabooks/tablets
ImSpartacus - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
Ice Lake certainly has IPC improvements, but Intel decided against backporting it to 14nm, so, yes, the 10nm delay functionally delays IPC improvements.repoman27 - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
In order to increase IPC, you need to actually update the microarchitecture. All of the Intel Lakes are based on the Skylake µarch, thus all of them have the same IPC. The exception being Cannon Lake, which saw some µarch changes as well as being fabbed on 10 nm. I believe Ian had a laptop with a Cannon Lake Core i3-8121U in it, so maybe he could comment on any IPC gains he saw with that part.abufrejoval - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
A process shrink is like having 20 fingers instead of 10: Just try to imagine how that would make you work double in the same time.The shrinks are hard, but turning shrinks into more of the existing work getting done in the same time frame is very, very, very hard when they have spent the last dozens of shrinks already performing that miracle. And in their cases they can't even change the ISA and maintain backward compatibility.
We have Spectre and Meltdown precisely because in their desperate search for more performance they went perhaps too far. Please put your mind into the problem before you demand the unreasonable.
HStewart - Wednesday, August 29, 2018 - link
"We have Spectre and Meltdown precisely because in their desperate search for more performance they went perhaps too far. Please put your mind into the problem before you demand the unreasonable."That is not true - The 8705g in my Dell XPS 15 2in1 has Intel MPX which is designed to detect buffer overflow or underflow.
https://ark.intel.com/products/130411/Intel-Core-i...
The Scalable Xeons have MBE - and I believe new one coming have something even better directly related to hardware fixes on Spectre and Meltdown
https://ark.intel.com/products/120498/Intel-Xeon-P...
Basically what it comes down to is that Intel does NOT require 10nm to fix Spectre and Meltdown issues in hardware,
Actually I think we have Spectre and Meltdown because there is people that hate Intel so much, they would find ways to attempt destroy them with bugs that have yet surface in real life - but in end it also includes AMD and ARM.
HStewart - Thursday, August 30, 2018 - link
I think the important thing is note that this is an Opinion. And I believe everything is opinion on the net except possible with technical details on a product that has been officially release.My opinion is that Intel has done a very smart thing with these chips and I believe up and coming Laptops / Tablets will be both smaller and longer battery life. They are doing this not because of Threat of AMD - but actually with because Windows on ARM laptops. But of course even the Y chip will be faster than ARM laptops - making Windows on ARM useless. Probably a key factor in Microsoft decision for not using it in Surface Go.
klagermkii - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
Why does Intel use the FireWire logo on their chipset diagram to represent SATA? Is there some kind of overlap?IntelUser2000 - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
That's not a FireWire symbol. It's different.FireWire: https://developer.apple.com/softwarelicensing/agre...
USB: https://www.quora.com/Who-designed-the-USB-symbol-...
Wait. Maybe you meant the SATA symbol uses Firewire. That's a flub on their part.
IntelUser2000 - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
Nevermind. Ignore the above.repoman27 - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
No, that's weird. I mean, the official SATA-IO logos are pretty lame, but subbing the FireWire logo was an odd choice.iwod - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
Utter BS coming from Intel. User count on experience? What experience did they provide or improve? Without OS and other hardware partner working with them? Intel is trying their MMX and Pentium inside again, where people will buy a newer generation of product even if it was the same as last gen but a rebadge.If they had included the Thunderbolt controller it would have been easier to swallow because that thing cost $15. Now it is more of the same. Lies after Lies after Lies. I am not sure how intel can be trusted anymore.
Oh if user don't care about node or uArch or technical details, please don't invite any tech journalist to your event. They might as well not write for you.
hecksagon - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
Re-badge? Last generation 15w parts were dual core. Id say a >50% bump in multithreaded performance is quite a bit more than a re-badge.Santoval - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
The value of the 2 additional cores will strongly depend on the cooling capacity of the device, and thus the duration of the boost frequency, or else they will crash to their base frequency and have zero performance edge over the fastest Kaby Lake-U (15W) CPUs such as i7-7600U and i7-7660U.repoman27 - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
The only difference here is clock speeds and the move to 300-series Cannon Point chipsets. Kaby Lake R was already a thing, and Amber Lake is still dual-core. I have to believe WHL and AML are at least fabbed on 14++ though.iwod - Wednesday, August 29, 2018 - link
I stand corrected, I thought the coffeelake generation in 25W parts had meant the 15W already has quad core as well. So for the 15W parts it is much better, the 5Ws parts they are more of the same.sing_electric - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
I know it seems like another minor upgrade (and hell, there's cases where if you're running anything Haswell or newer with a decent amount of RAM, you might not see a performance reason to upgrade), but on a scale from 1-10, I think we have to give these new chips a 14+++++++++.Ditiris - Wednesday, August 29, 2018 - link
Made me smile =)bernstein - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
cite: "Products are sold on capabilities and user experiences, not in the fine minutiae of technical specifications."true, but then CPUs aren't sold to the average consumer, most don't give a rats ass about what's in their electronic devices. they care about speed, device brand & battery life.
those that actually buy (and read articles like this) components like CPUs are very different from average joe, cut though marketing like a sheet of paper and almost exclusively care about technical details. and if those details are withheld they'll either find out or trust only benchmark results...
this leaves the question: who's intel marketing target at? dumb "experts"?
IntelUser2000 - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
Not all do, but a significant amount care for it. You are generalizing it for everyone.I've seen people crap on a product that was otherwise good because the CPU used was last generation.
Intel had a presentation years ago and one of the slides said enthusiast users(like people who knows about what the specs really mean) have a market effect equal to multiple consumers. I certainly recommend computers to family and friends. So in my case, 1 enthusiast is affecting 10-15 average joes.
wr3zzz - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
I think those days are gone. Instead of seeking the advice of a person who is "into it" from real life social circles younger generations have multiple virtual social circles they can tap for opinions without the embarrassment of reaching out and interacting to a real life person. Large circle "Influencers" have increasingly displaced the small circle enthusiasts. Companies gladly play to the new changes by releasing fewer information to the general public so they themselves can influence the influencers by controlling access.kpb321 - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
Man the cTDP down option really does a number on the base clock speeds. for the 15w processors dropping the TDP ~33% reduces the clock speed to half or less of the normal base speed. Obviously the CPU won't spend all, or hopefully much, of their time throttled down that low but it still looks painful.IntelUser2000 - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
It actually will, to keep within the new TDP. Of course lot of client usage is bursty, so its not as noticeable. Do anything sustained, and it'll drop.ajp_anton - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
But the 15W parts at cTDP down 10W have lower base clocks than the 5W parts at both 5W and 7W.Frenetic Pony - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
Of course Intel isn't divulging architecture details or manufacturing details. There's no need to report anything until there's anything to report, especially when saying "we didn't change almost anything" would make Intel look bad.zodiacfml - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
Exactlytipoo - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
15W parts still seem to lack Iris Plus, so maybe still not for the nontouchbar Macbook Pro...This alleged new budget Macbook, maybe, and the 5W parts definitely for the 12repoman27 - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
The MacBook (Retina, 13-inch, 2018) which will replace the 13-inch MacBook Air is simply the MacBook Pro (13-inch, Two Thunderbolt 3 Ports) in a wedge shaped / tapered case, as was originally intended back in 2016. As can be guessed just by looking at the name, that model was a total plan-B, and ended up delaying the 2016 MacBook Pro launch by four months. I'm guessing Apple will continue to use the same KBL-U 2+3e platform as the current 13-inch MacBook Pro sans Touch Bar and proceed to discontinue that product.IntelUser2000 - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
"If all of this wasn't confusing enough, OEMs can run the chips in cTDP Up and cTDP down modes. Will you be able to tell if your chip is in one of these modes?"You should know, since you write articles related to computers.
The cTDP modes are for manufacturers. They can decide how it can be implemented. If they wish, it could be cTDPdown all the time, or normal TDP all the time, or cTDPup all the time.
Or they can make it usage dependent for convertibles. Tablet mode = cTDPdown, Laptop mode on battery = Nominal, Laptop mode on AC power = cTDPup.
GreenReaper - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
Right, but his point was "as a consumer, will you be told these details?" - and like most questions posed by journalists, the answer is "probably not" - they'll just sell it as "contains Intel i7 processor".IntelUser2000 - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
The control is in manufacturer's hands. They do things for a reason.For example, there are ways to circumvent some power limitations so it runs at full power all the time. Perhaps the manufacturer decided the design and the chassis doesn't allow it to do that, doing some damage in the process.
Like, you don't want to be running at 25W full-bore when its in tablet mode.
Death666Angel - Wednesday, August 29, 2018 - link
Why are you not getting this? You are not contradicting anyone or adding anything to the conversation. His problem (and mine and others) with the variable TDPs is that manufacturers will not disclose them anywhere on the product pages or packing materials (most likely). Hence, it will be difficult to impossible to assess the real performance of product a, b or c based on the specs, because the specs might be incomplete. One more reason to wait for reviews, but reviews of more budget oriented notebooks are few and far between. So we can either buy it blind, test it and hope it performs as needed and if not ship it back. Or rely on sometimes unknowledgeable consumer reviews. Overall, while there might be good reason to implement variable TDP values, not disclosing them and Intel not forcing manufacturers to disclose them is not a good thing for consumers.ballsystemlord - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
Hey Ian! 25W @ 1.8GHz for the i5-8265U is out of line with the other results. You might have made a mistake there.Thanks, and I agree with, and love your "Editor's opinion" section!
PS: I do buy based on those minute technical details, look at Nvidia gsync+hdr on Pascal vs. Freesync+HDR on AMD GPUs. Those details *do* make a difference!
ajp_anton - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
"Here Intel told us that the OPI speed is running at 4 GT/s."Does this mean that already a single TB3 controller will be bottlenecked to half its speed by the "OPI"? Or an x4 m.2 drive.
Byte - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
The ULV processors really need help. I've been using a Yoga 1 with an Ivy bridge i5 since release, its feeling quite slow nowadays, I was able to get a HP Probook with a Skylake 6200U and it feels barely faster. My desktop skylake i7 feels way faster than my i7 ivy bridge both o/c to 4.4GHz. We need some better cooling for these chips to give them the 25W they need.repoman27 - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
Not that those things won't get bottlenecked, but OPI is an x8 link running at 4 GT/s, so same effective bandwidth as PCIe 3.0 x4.ajp_anton - Wednesday, August 29, 2018 - link
I somehow missed the article saying it runs at PCIe 3.0 x4 speeds. But it kind of feels odd, as I thought the chipset here was the same silicon as on desktops, just packaged differently, and the desktop DMI is x4 wide. So this mobile chipset is using an x8 wide OPI?repoman27 - Wednesday, August 29, 2018 - link
Yes. The U and Y processors bring the PCH on package, ditch the PEG lanes, and use OPI x8 instead of DMI x4. For such short trace lengths, using a wider, lower-clocked interface probably offers several advantages, most notably lower power consumption.repoman27 - Wednesday, August 29, 2018 - link
The PCH is probably no different than on the desktop, but it’s flip-chipped directly onto the same interposer as the CPU, so it may be exposing an entirely different interface than the DMI used by the two chip solutions.zamroni - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
Does it have hardware fix of meltdown and spectre?GreenReaper - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
All signs point to no. From the article: "the new chips are not protected in hardware, for those wondering".silverblue - Thursday, August 30, 2018 - link
Tom's Hardware seems to think they are. They have a table at the following link so you can see for yourself:https://www.tomshardware.com/news/whiskey-lake-mit...
zodiacfml - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
Not surprising. Why give numbers if they stayed more or less the same for many years.I don't like Apple but their business has provided TSMC to take the foundry business on top of the game. It looks like the new Apple chip this year is going have interesting numbers again
wr3zzz - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
Re: a culture of information. Perhaps Intel is just catering to the new generation of "journalism"? For reasons unfathomed to me younger generations prefer watching a ten minute Youtuber yaking clip to get the same piece of information that would take less than a minute to read from print media. Facts and data sheets aren't as important, not to mention don't fill enough air time for "influencers" as reactions to opinions and hyperbole.repoman27 - Tuesday, August 28, 2018 - link
"These new processors will fall under Intel’s 8th Generation branding, which already contains its Kaby Lake Refresh 15W processors, both with and without extra embedded DRAM for its graphics."Kaby Lake Refresh only added 4 quad-core 15 W parts with GT2 graphics. The last 15 W GT3e SKUs were part of the original Kaby Lake family and only dual-core. So Apple's choices for the new MacBook (Retina, 13-inch, 2018) are either WHL-U 4+2 or KBL-U 2+3e (same as the current 13-inch MacBook Pro sans TouchBar). I'd put my money on the latter.
"Both Amber Lake and Whiskey Lake are Kaby Lake underneath, there are no microarchitecture or manufacturing changes here."
This cannot be true. Kaby Lake was 14+. Whiskey and Amber have to at least be 14++ like Coffee Lake, no? Of course that also raises the question of why they received code names that aren't the same and aren't Coffee Lake either? I understand that Intel is in obfuscation mode at this point, but their code names usually follow an established pattern regardless of what the marketing team decides to do later on. Moving to 300 series / Cannon Point chipsets is simply a packaging update, so why did we get not one but two new processor family codenames?
gamer1000k - Wednesday, August 29, 2018 - link
Those Amber Lake parts look like they would be a nice fit for the next iteration of the Surface Go, although those MSRP prices are insane just like they were with the older m3 parts.Hopefully they'll drop the prices for those CPUs so we can see more small devices using them.
HStewart - Wednesday, August 29, 2018 - link
Most likely but not noted here the Amber Lake will have Chipset enhancement requiring less chips - however the CPU is still more expensive that Surface Go current chip - but much faster than that chip.yeeeeman - Wednesday, August 29, 2018 - link
I think Intel is being bashed because of the things it has learned its customers all these years, like tick tock, constant process improvements, constant uArch improvements. Now, that they can't do these things they changed the tactics and try to up the core count, improve efficiency of the node (current 14nm performance/efficiency is MUCH better than Broadwell 14nm). You could say that it reaches the results of what first try of 10nm could obtain.So, lets get used to that cause we are approaching the limit of silicon tech in the next years and thing will have to improve in other ways than we are used.
HStewart - Wednesday, August 29, 2018 - link
Yes in deed one thing Intel is showing with these updates is nm size is not all that is important, One most think where these chips are being aim - in the mobile industry and reducing chips on the motherboard is far more important then reducing die size. Intel is clearing showing you don't need 10nm to reduce the size of chips on laptop and increase battery life. Also who knows there maybe some process improvements also.HStewart - Wednesday, August 29, 2018 - link
One thing that I found interesting is something called MPX - the higher watt CPU's including the 8705g in my Dell XPS 2in1 have MAX - but this one does nothttps://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/c...
Note - the following was about MPX
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_MPX
Sounds like combination of compile and cpu changes to prevent buffer over runs
darkich - Wednesday, August 29, 2018 - link
Gosh those names are just so idiotic and repulsive, fitting for the company itself.I hope you drown in your whiskey lake, Intel.
DigitalFreak - Wednesday, August 29, 2018 - link
Whisky & Amber are real lakes in Wisconsin and Washington, respectively. Intel uses names of real lakes for it's code names. I suspect you don't care though, and were just having a butthurt moment.GreenReaper - Wednesday, August 29, 2018 - link
As a responsible company they shouldn't be promoting alcohol when it has been shown to be harmful at any level of intake.DigitalFreak - Wednesday, August 29, 2018 - link
@GreenRaper You might as well go whine to Wisconsin to rename the lake.ToTTenTranz - Wednesday, August 29, 2018 - link
I just think Intel isn't giving more information because very little information differs from previous products, and Whiskey Lake / Amber Lake are just a couple of chipset features away from being a simple rebrand.After ~2 years showing off what is essentially the same architecture on the same manufacturing node, I'd guess no one on their side is really looking forward to going through the same talking points over and over. Not to mention it doesn't bode well for the marketing department.
HStewart - Wednesday, August 29, 2018 - link
"After ~2 years showing off what is essentially the same architecture on the same manufacturing node, I'd guess no one on their side is really looking forward to going through the same talking points over and over. Not to mention it doesn't bode well for the marketing department."Manufacturing node is not the primary requirement changes - please see my note above about Intel MPX which is supported in higher power 8th Gen CPU - that help prevent buffer overruns
Also CPU changes is not always the area where changes - but Chipsets can make a big difference in especially in size and functionality.
Reading about what Intel has done here with Chipset sounds exciting, I bet next generation Apples will have significant better battery life and smaller size.
HStewart - Wednesday, September 5, 2018 - link
I think it is a little crazy when Intel makes changes in architecture AMD fans and other Intel haters call it rebranding or marketing, but when AMD does the exact same thing they call it progress.Another difference is unless some one mentions Intel in AMD article, normal Intel people like myself refrain from discussing it - unless it something that is directly related to AMD - But AMD fanboy's love to complain about Intel even though it add absolute nothing to discussion.
HStewart - Wednesday, August 29, 2018 - link
I think the key update s what they are doing with chipset - these are mobile chips - and less space it uses the smaller size it will be - by putting USB 3,1and WI-FI in chipset - they are reducing both size and cost. Plus with competition with ARM - they are increasing batter lifeAs for 8705g like in my Dell XPS 15 2in1 - it would have been nice if chipset was in it - but graphics look like it took much of space.
The key reason, I believe this is for Apple, longer life and reduce space.
wow&wow - Wednesday, August 29, 2018 - link
"Foreshadow" inside, with the mitigations that only reduce but can't eliminate the risk?Intel and all system companies and retail stores selling the “known” faulty products with the “known” INTENDED flaws (of not following the specs) inside the products should be sued for the crime of the fraud in criminal courts, shouldn’t they?
Sue the system companies to have them at least put the warning sticker "This product has known security risks with Intel CPU inside." on the products using the Intel CPUs that have the issues!
jcc5169 - Wednesday, August 29, 2018 - link
The descent begins ...... long way down, lots of howling and screaming comingSushisamurai - Friday, August 31, 2018 - link
Agreed - having more facts means salesmen like I can better steer customers to the right product versus an inferior product. Articles and analysis like these allow me to better understand products and make better recommendations, thereby increasing customer loyalty and sales. It’s just better honest selling.0ldman79 - Friday, August 31, 2018 - link
You miss the point.Intel was reaching for performance and left holes in the prefetch architecture that could be exploited.
He didn't say they weren't concerned with security and your response has very little to do with what he said.
Essentially he said that in their quest for performance they accidentally left open the sunroof and your response is that they invested good in door locks.
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I agree with comment that ,the value of the 2 additional cores will strongly depend on the cooling capacity of the device, and thus the duration of the boost frequency, or else they will crash to their base frequency.. thx https://askmeoffers.comikjadoon - Thursday, September 13, 2018 - link
Ian, not sure if this was available when this article was published, but a big upgrade was sneaked into Whiskey Lake over Kaby Lake-R:16 PCIe lanes, not 12 (in Kaby Lake-R) lanes, for the first time ever on U-series CPUs. This is noted on ARK:
https://ark.intel.com/products/124968/Intel-Core-i...
https://ark.intel.com/products/149091/Intel-Core-i...
Maybe something to add to the article? The usefulness: easier to wire up dGPU x8 + TB3 x4 + OPI x4. Seeing as ULV CPUs are now quad-cores like the old H-series, I think it's fitting they have the lanes to match.
Of course, notwithstanding cooling capability, but still. ;D
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