Comments Locked

55 Comments

Back to Article

  • HomeworldFound - Wednesday, August 16, 2017 - link

    Shortages that put extra money in your pockets, 2.5x more for a generational increase, what a shame that is for the entire industry, more free money due to executive decisions.
  • ddriver - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    Yeah, I bet they put GDDR memory in servers and phones, I bet that's just it.

    It could not possibly be another manufactured artificial shortage to jack up prices and increase profits, those noble, honorable corporations would never stoop so low for profit.

    There isn't even any shortage to be honest, they achieve that entirely by by keeping supply tight, an actual shortage would deprive them of some sales, while tight supply will allow them to sell as much as they can, simply at much better price.
  • Teutorix - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    Thats such a stupid statement... They arent selling GDDR to mobile and server markets, they are upping production of non VRAM products and reducing production of VRAM.
  • ddriver - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    Yeah, decisive crisis management executive decision no doubt. It went something like this:

    Manager: Boss, the artificial shortage for flash and dram worked out great, it boosted our profits by 25%. I think despite the fact that dram is a much smaller market, we should do the same there to milk some extra profit as well.

    Boss: What? We aren't doing that already? What is wrong with you people? Get right on it!

    Manager: So, how are we going to justify that?

    Boss: Why are you asking such rhetorical questions? You know that people are idiots that will buy just about anything. Obviously, dram is not a market with that strong demand, so we cannot claim there is shortage, so we are going to say that we are allocating production capacity to address the "shortages" in flash and dram. Surely nobody is going to notice that this will not solve the "shortages" on flash and dram.

    Manager: Brilliant as always.
  • Chris383 - Thursday, December 14, 2017 - link

    What about all the new SSD memory production? I think it could be possible that is part of the cause of prices going up.
  • GhostOfAnand - Wednesday, August 16, 2017 - link

    Oh those krazy Koreans and their price fixing.
  • Samus - Wednesday, August 16, 2017 - link

    Yeah, same ol' price fixing formula they've been caught and fined for in the past.

    1. Produce less memory
    2. Claim their is a shortage
    3. Increase price of memory

    The problem is the fines aren't enough to offset the ridiculous margins created by padded pricing...
  • Adramtech - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    If this is price fixing, then what did you call it during 2015 when this industry was losing money on the sale of every single chip and many companies failed? It's a comoddity market, when demand exceeds supply, prices rise. The only thing they can control is supply.
  • fuji_T - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    I don't work in DRAM/NAND production directly anymore, but when I did, I can assure you we didn't attempt to throttle production in an attempt to keep prices up. With how much it cost to buy tools, run the fab, etc, we tried to push out as much product as possible.

    New process nodes often take time to get yields/performance up. If you have a fixed number of tools and are trying to qualify a new node, there goes some of your capacity.
  • ddriver - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    Is that right? What prevents the industry from using existing tools and production lines until new production lines are operational and yield is stable? Nobody puts all its eggs into a brand new basket with immature yield. And you don't even have to work in the industry to know that.

    But good for you that you found a place to advertise your expertise in semiconductors in addition to impeccable logic and reasoning skills and that last but certainly not least, that extreme, complete dedication of the industry to bring as much to consumers without putting raw profit as a first priority.
  • Kvaern1 - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    "Is that right? What prevents the industry from using existing tools and production lines until new production lines are operational and yield is stable?"

    Demand for old tech has a tendency to drop when new tech is available.
  • ddriver - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    LOL, that's hilariously stupid.

    Because when you have supply for which there is no demand, you get the exact opposite of shortage - you get oversupply.

    Besides, the differences between old and new gen is always very small. In the case of dram it means that the previous gen product will be a little bigger and use a little more power.

    And if your reasoning skills are not up to the task, I will save you the effort - a little bigger ram modules that use a little more energy is INFINITELY BETTER than NO RAM AT ALL. Because you know, division by zero results in infinity.

    There is ABSOLUTELY nothing preventing the industry from running existing production lines until the new lines bring capacity up to the requirements. The ONLY reason they don't do that is because THEY INTENTIONALLY create tight supply, this is actually something they carefully calculate to find the sweet spot that will result in the least missed sale opportunities and the highest possible price they could justify.

    And IT IS NOT CONSUMERS that call for this, it is the manufacturers, the consumer is not at a benefit here, ONLY AT A LOSS, because inflated prices will actually make the new product less desirable than the old product. If you factor in the difference in size and the extra power the older product would use in its life time, that will be SIGNIFICANTLY LESS than the price jacking difference due to a deliberately engineered shortage. That's how it works - the industry does it for extra profit, and that profit comes from consumers. And I don't think that any consumer would ever demand to get a worse deal, save for individuals with serious psychological disorders (like mentally retarded).
  • nevcairiel - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    Thats not how it works, they don't build entirely new fabs for new processes, they start migrating existing fabs - and during that transitional period, capacity goes down.
  • ddriver - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    Nope, that is not true. There might be some exceptions, but the general practice is that when older older production lines capacity is no longer needed, they simply begin production of something that is less critical to new process. It is usually a few years of churning out "secondary" production before a production line is dissembled and and sold to some poorer chip maker who cannot afford cutting edge tooling.

    You don't shut down your bulk production line to make room for a new, untested production line with immature yield and possibly even manufacturing problems. That's moronic to say the least. New production lines are either assembled on a new spot, or at most, in the place of a severely outdated and practically obsolete production line that gets decommissioned. You never ever stop your current line the moment you begin making a new one, you never ever decommission your current mature line to make room for a brand new, untested line. You never ever remove an existing line the moment you have a newer one either, it remains operational for years doing other stuff.
  • ddriver - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    It might be news to you, but semiconductor foundries, or fabs as they call them, are not limited to one production line. Fabs are constructed big enough to facilitate multiple production lines, and fabs always have multiple generations of production lines working parallel, you have your current production line making what's most critical economically, you have your older lines making less important chips like microcontrollers and such, and you have your next gen production line for testing.

    The moment the new gen line passes testing and is deemed economically viable, it is expanded in the place of the oldest, rather than your current line. Because it will still take some time before the new gen matures to the point of becoming the "current".

    Tooling makes leaps every couple of years or so, and the leaps are not really all that big. It makes zero sense to decommission a 2 year old production line even if your new gen line is up to the yield and capacity requirement. The "old" production line is still very capable of producing a wide range of chips with very good economic viability.

    Granted, there are fabs which operate at one process node in their entirity, but those are luxuries that only the biggest chipmakers can afford, and they have a multitude of fabs, and the above principle applies nonetheless, it only extends to work on fab level rather than production line level. A new gen fab will never ever shut down a current gen fab to replace it, it will either be a newly built fab, or a fab whose equipment is significantly outdated.

    Take intel for example, which has been process leader for a very long time. They currently operate like 10 fabs, and despite having their "current" lines at 14 nm, they still operate fabs at 22, 32, 45 and even 65 nm. And their new 450mm 7nm fab will not immediately replace any of those outdated, "low demand" fabs, they will build a new fab for it. And they have only 2 of their fabs outfitted to the "current" 14 nm process, with two additional which run 14 and 22 nm in parallel and another that runs 14 and is testing 10 nm.
  • Kvaern1 - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    Shame you're such an arrogant idi*t. Some of your points would have been worth discussing.
  • ddriver - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    It shows who is an "arrogant idi*t", and also obviously a hypocrite on top of that...

    There is no room for discussion here. What you are doing is not discussing anything, but demonstrating exemplary cattle mentality trying to justify the actions of those who exploit you with nonsensical arguments, if they can even be considered arguments.

    Every major semiconductor maker has multiple fabs operating at different process nodes. None of them replace existing equipment before it completely runs its course, which usually takes 3-4 generations of process tooling.

    But I get it, you came here with the idea to try and act like you are smart and know a good reason for the shortage and price hacking that is other than deliberate, then your below-childish argument was pwned by facts, and now that your attempt at looking smart failed, so now you are sore and resort to name calling. Which is perfectly in line with the intellectual level you have displayed throughout that so called "discussion", or lack thereof.
  • Kristian Vättö - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    ddriver,

    Your arguments would be valid assuming stable demand, but the fact is DRAM demand is growing at 20-25% YoY. There are two ways to increase supply:

    1) Build new fab to increase wafer capacity
    2) Improve capacity per wafer by technology transition

    The DRAM market had been in a severe oversupply before the shortage started in 2016. Suppliers were losing money and nobody invested in new DRAM fabs as a result. Hence supply growth has been fully dependent on technology transition, but it's always a gradually slow way to improve supply, especially as DRAM is starting to run into the laws of physics and every generation is providing less gains in Gbit/mm^2.
  • ddriver - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    I am sure this sounds very convincing to you, but my requirements for logic are higher, and I see a number of issues with that convenient story.

    You don't go from oversupply to shortage in an instant just because of YoY demand growths. It wasn't merely the product of "not investing" in fabs. If the available capacity was sufficient enough to introduce an oversupply last year, the same production capacity should not have a problem meeting demand this year, especially not with the build up of idle inventory.

    They were so unhappy with the fact that sufficient supply and competition drove prices and their profit margins down. They'd have to actually deliberately cut production, which is in essence the very definition of artificial scarcity. It wasn't a product of lack of production capacity, it was a product of them being unhappy with lowering prices. It wouldn't take a genius to realize that this is NOT in the interest in any of the big chip makers. Why should they make as much as they can and have their profit margins suffer, when they can actually make more money on making less chips.

    It is funny that people seem to so often need a reminder that making stuff is not the primary objective. It is making money. They make chips so they can make money. Money takes precedence. I am pretty sure they all have scores of analysts whose daily labor is to estimate supply trends, which are fairly well predictable, there are basically only two factors at play here - market saturation and technology upgrades. The oversupply was definitely not because of failure to predict demand, it was more like "competition", they were testing each other how low is every one of them willing to go, and how long can they afford to, which is very useful to estimate the actual potency of your competitors, not to mention it will push the weaker ones out of the market for good, and you get to have it for yourself. The shortage is not accidental neither, it was just as deliberate as the oversupply, the latter of which also ends up being used as a justification for the former. If your story holds true, then both the oversupply and the shortage should hurt chip-makers, which I bet is not something that you will be able to detect in their financial performance stats. They did take a minor hit on the oversupply, but only because it was a pre-condition, required for a business strategy that will end up making tremendously more money, completely offsetting the loss due to oversupply, ending up making significantly more money in that period compared to what they would have made had they kept supply adequate. They deliberately rock the boat to make those waves, which are the distraction and justification they need to milk the market as much as possible. Think of the oversupply as an "investment" of a sort. An investment with ample returns.

    And finally, this is neither unprecedented nor even new. The market has been subject to manipulations through its entire historical existence.
  • damianrobertjones - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    Tell that to 4k televisions.
  • nobitakun - Sunday, November 5, 2017 - link

    In a nutshell, they are a bunch of thieves with no moral. There should be a regulatory company to give those companies a sweet fine enough to close an entire factory if they don't act in a right way. My wish for Samsung to die isn't becoming true, I wonder what's happening in the heaven with god, aren't you listening to me?!?
  • eddman - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    "But good for you that you found a place to advertise your expertise in semiconductors in addition to impeccable logic and reasoning skills "

    This is your problem; attacking and insulting others out of the blue. Not once in his comment he wrote anything offensive, and simply wrote about his experience in the industry (maybe he's lying but that's beside the point).

    You accuse him of advertising his expertise, yet you do it every single day here.
  • ddriver - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    Nope, I am just expressing an option, it wasn't me who claimed to have worked in the industry, implying first hand knowledge, just to make a nonsensical point.

    My opinion is not based on expertise, it is based on logic and common sense. But hey, maybe those skills are not valued guides in the semiconductor industry. It is possible that the industry operates on nonsense, I could not possibly know that, not having any experience in the field.

    Also, I don't see any insults in that passage you quoted. All I see is irony. Maybe irony is not politically correct too now? Maybe disagreeing with the status quo is not PC either? Let's all be amazing by buying whatever the official narrative is, let's not ask questions, criticize, or disagree, and for the love of god, do not use any form of rhetorical devices or literal techniques such as irony, sarcasm, cynicism, hyperbole or analogy.
  • ddriver - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    that was supposed to be "literary techniques"
  • eddman - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    Yes, you did insult him. Insults are not just formed with explicit words. That passage was 100% unnecessary, since you had already made your point but no, you just had to attack him personally, because how else can you feel superior.
  • ddriver - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    So how do you get to feel superior? By being and internet volunteer morale officer? The defender against ddriver-related injustice, right? The definite authority of what is necessary and what is not. The protector of failing wannabes. The arbiter of what's offensive and inappropriate.

    Thanks for being there to balance out the universe, this is actually making it easier for me to be myself without worrying about throwing it off balance.

    You know, fact and truth tend to get more and more offensive and insulting to a certain subset of the general population. But I genuinely do not think removing those two from the equation is what makes things right. If you have a problem with those, then the problem is in you, not in fact or truth. What I do is called "schooling" and if you still have a few brain cells that you know how to use, you will actually take a point of it and self-improve. Or alternatively, chose to stick to being a fool and feeling insulted whenever someone points that out.
  • ddriver - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    And just because it looks like you won't get the point, regardless of how many times I hint at it:

    I do not feel the need to pretend to be superior. Nor do I feel the need to offend others. It is a matter of psychology, which I guess is not your strong point. What I do is point out a harmful fact. A harmful way of thinking people have, a trained-in response to interpreting acts of deliberate corruption as misfortune turn of events. People are being brainwashed into it, because the ignorant mindset allows the corrupt to act completely unobstructed, because people don't even acknowledge the actual problem.

    And the reason people opt to get offended is simple, and they will get offended at pointing out that inconvenient fact regardless of the manner in which it is presented. This is the trained-in protection of your ignorance regarding the source of turmoil and crisis. You'd rather see me as the villain, thus tarnishing the point I make in your own mind, than improve yourself and recognize and acknowledge the actual villains to made you and keep you into being obedient cattle, ignorant to their exploits. Because god forbid people start acknowledging it and doing something about it.

    There are many people who will chose to remain passive on a subconscious level. The "reasoning" here is just as simple and obvious. You do know you are a powerless cog, therefore it you will gain nothing from troubling yourself by acknowledging the corrupt reality of the establishment, you are convinced you can't and won't do anything about it. So you can at least save yourself the distress of living with the realization that you are a powerless cog, you'd rather force yourself to believe all those are misfortune mishaps, and that eventually things will finally get better on their own.
  • eddman - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    "I do not feel the need to pretend to be superior. Nor do I feel the need to offend others."

    Yet you do it all the time and even did just in that comment. You cannot even see your own mental and psychological issues. Keep insulting people on random internet sites. That sure is going to fix the "evil establishment" problem.

    I've seen people who can talk about corruption in very delicate and detailed ways without being vulgar or arrogant. You are not one of them.
  • ddriver - Friday, August 18, 2017 - link

    The moment I feel urges to paint myself superior by comparing myself to people like you, I will simply donate my organs and kill myself. It would be comparable to your painting yourself superior to a toddler just because you don't go number 2 in your pants. If you see attempts at displaying superiority, then that's just your inferiority trying to protect its integrity.
  • eddman - Friday, August 18, 2017 - link

    It's quite obvious that you feel the need, else you wouldn't be attacking people personally in a comment section just because they mentioned they worked in a certain field. Mental complexes are hard to deal with.
  • JCB994 - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    Many processes on a new device cannot be run on current toolsets. New devices, new processes, new tools. I worked in DRAM 20 years ago and went from 40nm to 19nm in 4 years. Photo tools, Etch chambers, CVD chambers, Diffusion tubes, etc all did multiple upgrades in that time. Production is lost in downtime, ramps, and lower yields until we figured out the process.
  • ddriver - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    Are you talking about a particular plant or a particular manufacturer? A particular plant is understandable if they had other facilities doing intermediate modes.

    Or maybe a scenario with a resource-constrained maker, that lacked the funds to go for a gradual update cycle. Thus exploiting old equipment for as long as possible, then replacing it with new equipment due to lack of additional fab space. But generally a very bad business model and not something that is practiced at those deep pocket multi billion dollar corporations.

    The point is nobody removes his primary product and money making equipment to replace it with untested tooling and process which are not production ready. The way big boys do it is they figure out the process first, and only then they begin to scale it up, either in new facilities or replacing production lines of secondary importance.

    There are additional indications that shortages are very much intentional. The US and its puppets seem to be VERY CONCERNED with China entering the market. If there is a legit shortage, then more production will be a very welcomed thing. Yet the CFIUS went out of the line just to make sure that China does not purchase SanDisk IP from WD out of fear that IP will jump start flash production in China. Micron and Hynix were also told to hold off on any licensing deals in efforts to prevent the introduction of another major (and perhaps most importantly non-US-puppet) flash maker.

    But the Chinese keep on pushing even without relying on the licensing on IP, and now we have all those analysts who spread gloom and doom how DISRUPTIVE it would be for China to enter the flash market with 100k wafers a month. But again, why is that a bad thing? I mean it is not like they are complaining about China filling in a bunch of shortages, including cheap labor, why is it so important to protect the flash shortage?

    I mean unless it is deliberate, and China offering enough supply to meet demand is not utterly detrimental to the plan of the big boys who engineered this shortage to reap profits on it. I mean they did lost money staging the oversupply that was necessary to justify the shortage and ridiculous price jacking. China entering the market would be a big blow to that plan.
  • CaedenV - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    I have worked in warehouses before. Big as they are, floor-space can be limited, especially in established businesses. Starting a new production line often means tearing something out to put something else in. This means decreased production on everything before the increase in production on the new thing hits. It is all logistics.

    Plus, with as volatile as the phone market has made chip production, it makes things very difficult to choose what to make. A new Sammy or Apple phone launch means a large ramp-up in production in certain chips, followed by a sharp drop-off in demand after the product hits shelves. So just how much floor space do you convert to these temp bursts in demand, compared to the stable day-to-day demand for other products? It is all time v money v space. No easy decisions, and a miss-step can mean loosing money on every chip produced if the market falls out from under you.
  • ddriver - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    It is quite simple really, use idle inventory as buffer and to hide the capacity penalties of refitting the output of a production line.

    A maxim I generally abide to - "you don't have enough until you have left-over". And it is not eggs, it won't spoil if it sits around in a few weeks, nor is it unique stuff that cannot find a target market if the original intended target has been saturated.

    It is much, much faster to change what a production line makes than it is to upgrade tooling.
  • ddriver - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    And just to clarify, working in the warehouse, or in logistics, or pretty much in 99.99% of the industry doesn't really grant anyone extra insight into the actual reasons and motivations behind executive decision making.

    So "I worked and the industry and therefore know better" is kind of a rather moot point.
  • Samus - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    That all depends. Apparently you didn't collude with your competitors...so you just weren't doing business properly! ;)
  • Stochastic - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    The days of affordable computers may be coming to an end temporarily. What a shame.
  • Adramtech - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    Not true, prices per bit are falling drastically.
  • Impulses - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    DRAM prices has always been quite volatile, don't get so hung up on any 1-2 year period or even 3-4 years, it's always yo-yo'd like crazy... Frankly the current price hikes are still nothing compared to what's gone down in the not too distant past.
  • milli - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    This. Around 16 years ago there was a huge price hike. Memory prices went up more than two fold, even three fold. The current price increase is nothing compared to that.
  • Communism - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    It's already over 2x the price currently, and according to the article, it will go to 3x the price fairly soon.

    Hopefully Chinese DRAM and NAND fabs catch up at some point.

    Until that happens price fixing is simply going to keep happening forever in this market segment.
  • Communism - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    Here's a taste of what happens when China starts making something:

    http://steelbenchmarker.com/files/history.pdf

    US Steel, 700-900 USD per ton,
    Chinese Steel, ~100-150 USD per ton (pre-tariff price)
  • Communism - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    That's the real reason why countries talk up "national security risks" when "transferring technology" to them.

    It never has anything to do with "national security risks" and never has been.

    It's all about the benjamins (pentiums) baby :P
  • CaedenV - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    Ya, 6 years ago I built my desktop and picked up 16GB of DDR3 for ~$80, then the price hiked to up $200+ and only just got back to the $80 price last year. Now it is back to ~$90. The prices jump around all over the place, and that is normal.

    But at the same time, I think we are fast approaching a saturation point. The upgrade pace for new phones, tablets, laptops, desktops, etc is slowing down per-person, and the number of people with such devices is saturating. The big increase in demand has mostly been for phones and game consoles which have jumped from 1GB of RAM and 8GB of flash to 4-8GB of RAM and 128-256GB of flash. That is a big step up in such a short amount of time. But just as laptops stalled out in demand for extra ram and storage a few years back, phones are looking at a similar stall. So if unit sales are no longer increasing, and specs are not going up, we should see these markets stabalize in the near future(if not contract a bit), which should in-turn stabilize the pricing for these parts.
  • Communism - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    Prepare to be shocked if/when Chinese DRAM and NAND fabs catch up and prices go down 90% and stay down forever.

    Price fixing is as price fixing does. No need to pretend it's not price fixing as they have done this since the 1980s at the very least.
  • Adramtech - Friday, August 18, 2017 - link

    Chinese fabs are currently just a money pit with nothing to show. Private investors are bailing and the industry is resorting to government funding. The minimum investment in a fab is $10B with no guarantee of any return even if the chips they make are good. They are very risky. China doesn't have the IP or the skilled manpower. Even Samsung is complaining about hiring skilled workers per recent news reports, and industry insiders think China won't have anything meaningful for 3-5 years, if at all.
  • Communism - Friday, August 18, 2017 - link

    All technology firms everywhere in the world are almost 100% sustained by government printed money in one way or another. This isn't unique in any way.
  • milli - Friday, August 18, 2017 - link

    SMIC already has 28nm and 14nm is nearing. I don't understand what you are talking about.
  • Adramtech - Friday, August 18, 2017 - link

    That's a foundry. Name a Chinese company that's manufacturing their own unique memory and/or storage from their own technoligical IP? China doesn't have a memory/storage business.
  • Adramtech - Friday, August 18, 2017 - link

    We are far from a saturation point. The industry is saying we are at the dawn of a new information age with the advent of AI technologies, Internet of Things, cloud computing and storage, self driving functions and in the future completely self driving automobiles, infotainment in automobiles...all of this fairly new and large demand is on top of gaming, phones, and PCs/Tablets - None of these things will use less memory or storage in the future.
  • Communism - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    Guess I'm waiting for the Skylake HEDT successor now then.....

    I waited this long, i guess i'll just have to wait some more.
  • BeamytSunop - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    And then wait some more.
  • BrokenCrayons - Thursday, August 17, 2017 - link

    RAM and solid state price increases at the same time make this a yucky point in history to do upgrades or build a new system. Price inflation of late is sort of discouraging me from buying parts, but it almost feels like there's component shortages for something new just as another component's shortages are easing off a little.
  • edcoolio - Saturday, August 19, 2017 - link

    So, SK Hynix and Samsung control about 85-90% of the market. As early as last year, headlines were screaming "Samsung prepares for memory price war" and that Samsung specifically wanted market share over profit margin. I guess now that they believe they have maxed out their share, it is time to cash in with greater margins with their new friends.

    If I were a bit paranoid, I might consider that Samsung and SK Hynix, have been sued for anti-trust practices over the hot item at the time : flash memory. If I were a bit more paranoid, I might point out that Samsung's Choi Soon-sil scandal (along with the saga of SK and LG) may have something to do with it. If I were a flat out lunatic, I might believe that they have banded together to gather a legal war-chest through the same back-channel deals that got them in trouble in the first place.

    Just less than 7 months ago, prosecutors were trying for the second time to get an arrest warrant for Samsung Electronics Vice Chairman Lee Jae-yong.

    Naw. Nothing to see here.
  • sonalimahajan93 - Monday, August 21, 2017 - link

    not again....whats wrong with samsung

Log in

Don't have an account? Sign up now